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Author Topic: Mary-Sues and Gary-Stus  (Read 400 times)
LVDB
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« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2010, 02:13:07 pm »

It's true about Bella, but then--Edward is perfect and beautiful and angsty and tortured and all the girls want him and he is, like, a super awesome vampire, and he is just as self-centered as Bella, but no one calls him a Stu, you know?

Good point; Edward provides a particularly good example for this discussion.

My own definition of Sues centers on the author's or audience's wish-fulfillment. Going by this logic, I don't consider Edward a Sue because the author doesn't live her fantasies (or her readers' fantasies) through him. Instead, she lives them through Bella. Edward is certainly a one-dimensional character in this scenario (and borderline fashion accessory...) but not a Sue because he isn't the character that the audience--and author--identifies with. Edward's super-awesome-vampireness only makes him a desirable object of Bella's affections. Now, if Twilight's author was a male (or if male readers wanted to behave like Edward), then he would qualify.

Of course, fiction provides wish-fulfillment all the time. For me, a character only turns into a Sue when he/she veers so far into "I win all the time and everybody loves me" territory that it becomes unbelievable and annoying.

If we assume that wish-fulfillment defines a Sue, then we can also explain a lot of the gender disparity quite simply: more females write fan fiction than males. In canons with a male audience (Evangelion comes to mind), male Sues emerge with alarming frequency, and are labeled as such. In canons like Narnia, fewer male Sues appear.
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Anastigmat
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« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2010, 07:52:19 pm »

I think it's much easier to identify a fandom Sue/Stu -- can I just call them both Stue? -- than a canon one.  The hero of a story, by necessity, is going to have a lot of special characteristics, or powers, or circumstances.  Most story structures require that the hero rise above their origins, whether by growing mentally and emotionally, gaining new skills, or showing an innate proficiency for whatever is most important in the story world.

I mean, Harry Potter and Luke Skywalker could practically be brothers.  Innocent kids with humble beginnings? Check. Very well-known by a society that they never dreamed existed, and wanted on both sides for various reasons? Check. Parents (or, in Luke's case, parental figures) killed off by the Big Bad? Check. Learning special powers that accompany a fantastic one-handed long and pointy weapon to defeat the Big Bad and save civilization;  their best friend gets the girl; they are tutored by old folks with fuzzy white hair and robes who speak in riddles and die inconveniently; they are occasionally nommed by monsters;  .... yeah.  Where was I again?  Oh, yes.

It's easier to ID a fandom Stue because in established canon, there is already a character (or several, depending) who take on some or all aspects of the hero's role.  The Stue, by nature, is its own hero, shoehorned into a story that already has one and generally can't accommodate another.   Sometimes this is wish-fulfillment for the author, sometimes it's done to fix canon, sometimes it's done to attempt to pull the story in a new direction. 

It's not impossible to add a new central character, or to make a peripheral character more believable and pull them into the thick of the story, but it has to be handled carefully.  There's a world of difference between Chekhov's Character-Gun and Wait, Who The Hell is That? Was Dawn Summers a Sue?  Would Jacob Black be considered a Stu if the book canon had stopped at one and the rest was fanfic?  Did Rosencrantz & Guildenstern get Stu'd in the Stoppard movie?  Were Rose Tyler and Jack Harkness Stues?  It's a tricky line to cross, and it's a lot harder in fanfic, where we generally come for the promise of canon characters.
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« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2010, 02:46:29 am »

tutored by old folks with fuzzy white hair and robes who speak in riddles and die inconveniently

Oh, man, I hate it when that happens ....   :D
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